Discussion:
[LAU] Experiences with miniDSP AVB products ?
n***@parkellipsen.de
2018-10-01 12:18:14 UTC
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Chris Caudle
2018-10-01 13:18:34 UTC
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while searching for a simple multichannel audio
interface for playback, i came across the N-DAC 8 by miniDSP.
There is no standard AVB support in Linux currently, but the USB versions
from miniDSP should work just fine (basic XMOS based class compliant
behavior).
--
Chris Caudle
n***@parkellipsen.de
2018-10-01 14:05:04 UTC
Permalink
So what's the current state of AVB support development in general ?

Somewhere i read that there's some AVB/Jack interoperability, but information
is sparse. I found the openAVNU repositories, but i didn't really have time to
get into it so far.

Is there any hope that it might be a viable solution in the near future ? It seems
to be a very modular and flexible solution ...
Post by Chris Caudle
while searching for a simple multichannel audio
interface for playback, i came across the N-DAC 8 by miniDSP.
There is no standard AVB support in Linux currently, but the USB versions
from miniDSP should work just fine (basic XMOS based class compliant
behavior).
--
Chris Caudle
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Len Ovens
2018-10-01 15:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
So what's the current state of AVB support development in general ?
Somewhere i read that there's some AVB/Jack interoperability, but information
is sparse. I found the openAVNU repositories, but i didn't really have time to
get into it so far.
Is there any hope that it might be a viable solution in the near future ? It seems
to be a very modular and flexible solution ...
There is (so far as I know) nobody working on AVB support for Linux. No
ALSA work at all. The jack support is as a jack client and so far as I
know has only been tested jack to jack not jack to endpoint. Because the
jack support is as a client and I do not know how or if sync is achieved,
it may be external to the avb path. (or SRC)

--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
n***@parkellipsen.de
2018-10-01 15:41:37 UTC
Permalink
Hmm but you wrote in a previous mail that there might be a chance to make it
work if sb is willing to put the effort in?

Are there any resources on that ? I only found a thread in the ardour
forums, but couldn't extract any info about where to start. (tbh i just skimmed
it quickly).
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
So what's the current state of AVB support development in general ?
Somewhere i read that there's some AVB/Jack interoperability, but
information
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
is sparse. I found the openAVNU repositories, but i didn't really have
time to
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
get into it so far.
Is there any hope that it might be a viable solution in the near future
? It
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
seems
to be a very modular and flexible solution ...
There is (so far as I know) nobody working on AVB support for Linux. No
ALSA work at all. The jack support is as a jack client and so far as I
know has only been tested jack to jack not jack to endpoint. Because the
jack support is as a client and I do not know how or if sync is achieved,
it may be external to the avb path. (or SRC)
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net <http://www.ovenwerks.net>
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Len Ovens
2018-10-01 17:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
Hmm but you wrote in a previous mail that there might be a chance to make it
work if sb is willing to put the effort in?
Are there any resources on that ? I only found a thread in the ardour
forums, but couldn't extract any info about where to start. (tbh i just skimmed
it quickly).
Both put the effort in and have the hardware to test with.

In my mind there are two paths one could take, jack or alsa.

ALSA: in the case of ALSA one would create a driver that would start up at
system start or manually after start (manually could mean using a GUI).
The device once connected would be static. It would have a fixed number of
audio ports and possibly break if that device went away (same as a USB
device). This would be fine for many uses. It would have to be all
inclusive though.

Jack: This case is or could be much more flexable. In this case I would
use the NIC's clock (assuming an i210 or similar that has such a thing)
and use it to time the dummy backend for jack. There would be some code
involved to either make this clock master or slave. I don't know if this
already happens with the code as it stands. The i210 has some extra pins,
it would be great if one of them could be programed to put out wordclock
as well for syncing a local audio interface to the whole works.

A GUI would list known interfaces that can be connected (those that have
the right SR at least) either as a grid (like Ardour's audio port
connection GUI) or as a list like qjackctl's Connections window. I suspect
as things get more complex the patchage style might be hard to use but
that is another possibility. This GUI would not just make a jack
connection, but would have to first start a jack client that is connected
to the remote device and then connect it. As many AVB devices only seem to
deal with 8 channel streams at a time, connecting one port would mean that
8 ports would show up on the jack graph and the GUI would connect any
other port for that stream without creating another jack client. Devices
could be added or removed at any time and if an AVB client is no longer
needed (has no connections for more than 10 seconds) it could vanish.

I do not know if there is already code that allows a jack client or
connection GUI to advertize stream availablity to the world but, as with
all things AVB, that would be yet another piece of code.

Going this route would also leave things open for AES67 using the same
clock. It would seem possible to connect to both AVB and aes67 devices at
the same time. Assuming a suitable aes67 jack client was available.

I had thought to work on something like that and have the i210 NIC but not
A) another computer to act as an end point or B) (better) an AVB endpoint
to play with. In my case I would prefer inputs.

Another solution, though probably more costly, is to purchase something
that has both USB and AVB and use it to access a remote audio device. The
Motu 8D for example (8 aes3 i/o) is 800CDN or the 8A (8 audio i/o) is
1050CDN. The advantage is that you end up with local audio i/o that is in
sync with your remote. (well sort of, you may find aes3 inputs go through
a SRC stage unless you provide sync to any aes3 input box)

If all you want is a cheap network audio solution... an old computer with
8 outs and runs jack... use zita-njbridge... be happy. Almost all HDA
mother boards have 8 outs for a number of years, but it may be almost as
cheap to use a new atom based MB with 16v PS as the minidsp 8n. (or a
nuc... well maybe not, they have 7.1 through hdmi but only 4 physical on
the $200 model) Pulse also offers networked audio... but I have no
experience with that and pulse is known to be lossy (as in samples just
get lost)



--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
Niklas Reppel
2018-10-01 21:13:35 UTC
Permalink
Well mostly I'd be interested in having a somewhat modular, compact yet
extensible solutions for
multiple channels on recent laptops.

The choice of multichannel options (esp. exceeding 8 channels) for Linux
is unfortunately very small,
and often the devices that are compatible are not that compact.

So being able to patch together multiple devices as the situation
requires via an AVB switch seems more than desirable ...
Post by Len Ovens
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
Hmm but you wrote in a previous mail that there might be a chance to
make it work if sb is willing to put the effort in?
Are there any resources on that ? I only found a thread in the ardour
forums, but couldn't extract any info about where to start. (tbh i just skimmed
it quickly).
Both put the effort in and have the hardware to test with.
In my mind there are two paths one could take, jack or alsa.
ALSA: in the case of ALSA one would create a driver that would start
up at system start or manually after start (manually could mean using
a GUI). The device once connected would be static. It would have a
fixed number of audio ports and possibly break if that device went
away (same as a USB device). This would be fine for many uses. It
would have to be all inclusive though.
Jack: This case is or could be much more flexable. In this case I
would use the NIC's clock (assuming an i210 or similar that has such a
thing) and use it to time the dummy backend for jack. There would be
some code involved to either make this clock master or slave. I don't
know if this already happens with the code as it stands. The i210 has
some extra pins, it would be great if one of them could be programed
to put out wordclock as well for syncing a local audio interface to
the whole works.
A GUI would list known interfaces that can be connected (those that
have the right SR at least) either as a grid (like Ardour's audio port
connection GUI) or as a list like qjackctl's Connections window. I
suspect as things get more complex the patchage style might be hard to
use but that is another possibility. This GUI would not just make a
jack connection, but would have to first start a jack client that is
connected to the remote device and then connect it. As many AVB
devices only seem to deal with 8 channel streams at a time, connecting
one port would mean that 8 ports would show up on the jack graph and
the GUI would connect any other port for that stream without creating
another jack client. Devices could be added or removed at any time and
if an AVB client is no longer needed (has no connections for more than
10 seconds) it could vanish.
I do not know if there is already code that allows a jack client or
connection GUI to advertize stream availablity to the world but, as
with all things AVB, that would be yet another piece of code.
Going this route would also leave things open for AES67 using the same
clock. It would seem possible to connect to both AVB and aes67 devices
at the same time. Assuming a suitable aes67 jack client was available.
I had thought to work on something like that and have the i210 NIC but
not A) another computer to act as an end point or B) (better) an AVB
endpoint to play with. In my case I would prefer inputs.
Another solution, though probably more costly, is to purchase
something that has both USB and AVB and use it to access a remote
audio device. The Motu 8D for example (8 aes3 i/o) is 800CDN or the 8A
(8 audio i/o) is 1050CDN. The advantage is that you end up with local
audio i/o that is in sync with your remote. (well sort of, you may
find aes3 inputs go through a SRC stage unless you provide sync to any
aes3 input box)
If all you want is a cheap network audio solution... an old computer
with 8 outs and runs jack... use zita-njbridge... be happy. Almost all
HDA mother boards have 8 outs for a number of years, but it may be
almost as cheap to use a new atom based MB with 16v PS as the minidsp
8n. (or a nuc... well maybe not, they have 7.1 through hdmi but only 4
physical on the $200 model) Pulse also offers networked audio... but I
have no experience with that and pulse is known to be lossy (as in
samples just get lost)
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
--
Niklas Reppel
www.parkellipsen.de
Chris Caudle
2018-10-01 21:36:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Niklas Reppel
Well mostly I'd be interested in having a somewhat modular, compact yet
extensible solutions for multiple channels on recent laptops.
The MOTU devices allow connecting a laptop via USB, and expanding audio
channels via an AVB switch between multiple interfaces (or just direct
connection if you only have two devices).
The addition of AVB interface seems to add several hundred
dollars/pounds/euros to the price compared to a USB only device, so either
the expandability or the ability to physically separate the multiple
interfaces would have to be relatively valuable to make it worth the extra
cost.
--
Chris Caudle
n***@parkellipsen.de
2018-10-02 06:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Ohh ok, that'd work with the recent MOTU ? Interesting, that makes
the Ultralite AVB worth a closer look. Would that mean i could, like,
just attach an N-DAC 8 to the MOTU and see another 8 outputs in JACK ?
Sorry if i sound a bit naive but i have no experience with network audio
so far ...

Cost-wise the difference isn't that much, no ? The AVB Ultralite is just
about ~30 euros more expensive than the regular MK4 ...

I mean, you might need an expensive switch, and eventually another DAC, but still,
it seems to offer a good lot of flexibility, or the possibility just to plug in into
an existing setup, etc ... i the end you'd probably end up in a price range not that
far from other solutions ...
Post by Chris Caudle
Post by Niklas Reppel
Well mostly I'd be interested in having a somewhat modular, compact yet
extensible solutions for multiple channels on recent laptops.
The MOTU devices allow connecting a laptop via USB, and expanding audio
channels via an AVB switch between multiple interfaces (or just direct
connection if you only have two devices).
The addition of AVB interface seems to add several hundred
dollars/pounds/euros to the price compared to a USB only device, so either
the expandability or the ability to physically separate the multiple
interfaces would have to be relatively valuable to make it worth the extra
cost.
--
Chris Caudle
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Len Ovens
2018-10-02 15:56:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
Ohh ok, that'd work with the recent MOTU ? Interesting, that makes
the Ultralite AVB worth a closer look. Would that mean i could, like,
just attach an N-DAC 8 to the MOTU and see another 8 outputs in JACK ?
Sorry if i sound a bit naive but i have no experience with network audio
so far ...
Almost... before starting jack, maybe before plugging in the the
ultralite's USB even, connect the ndac. Then, using the web app on the
ultralite... uh, oh... Hmmm I guess that means you already need an AVB
type switch :) but anyway, using the web app, set up the ultralite to
accept the 8channel stream from the ndac which will make the utralite have
more or show more inputs. Now connect the ultralite to the computer and
the extra channels shoulld show.

Now I am not sure this is exactly right. The ultralite may show enough
channels all the time (there is a limit BTW). However, from reading the
manual, I get the idea that routing still must be performed and that ALSA
(via USB) can't do that. You need to use the web interface which uses the
same network port as the AVB network. So a minimal system is an ultralite
only works as audio interface and the network needs to be connected to
your computer. The next step to add one AVB endpoint requires an AVB hub
as well. So that would be three boxes for a minimal remote box system. In
my case, though I would love to experiment, it will remain on my todo list
for a long time yet :) My legacy PCI interface will have to do.

--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
Anders Hellquist
2018-10-04 13:34:17 UTC
Permalink
I have two Ultralite AVBs and an AVB switch..

When using linux and running more than one interface, it is almost
necessary to connect to an AVB switch to be able to configure the AVB
devices via the built in html gui
On windows and OSX you get access to the built in gui via the usb
connection so you will be able to configure both interfaces from either end
over the usb-ip link.

It should be possible to connect both avb devices directly without an avb
switch and configure the routing and AVB streams using a supported os and
the have a working setup.
Ohh ok, that'd work with the recent MOTU ? Interesting, that makes the
Post by n***@parkellipsen.de
Ultralite AVB worth a closer look. Would that mean i could, like,
just attach an N-DAC 8 to the MOTU and see another 8 outputs in JACK ?
Sorry if i sound a bit naive but i have no experience with network audio
so far ...
Almost... before starting jack, maybe before plugging in the the
ultralite's USB even, connect the ndac. Then, using the web app on the
ultralite... uh, oh... Hmmm I guess that means you already need an AVB type
switch :) but anyway, using the web app, set up the ultralite to accept the
8channel stream from the ndac which will make the utralite have more or
show more inputs. Now connect the ultralite to the computer and the extra
channels shoulld show.
Now I am not sure this is exactly right. The ultralite may show enough
channels all the time (there is a limit BTW). However, from reading the
manual, I get the idea that routing still must be performed and that ALSA
(via USB) can't do that. You need to use the web interface which uses the
same network port as the AVB network. So a minimal system is an ultralite
only works as audio interface and the network needs to be connected to your
computer. The next step to add one AVB endpoint requires an AVB hub as
well. So that would be three boxes for a minimal remote box system. In my
case, though I would love to experiment, it will remain on my todo list for
a long time yet :) My legacy PCI interface will have to do.
--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user
Max
2018-10-02 12:08:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Caudle
The MOTU devices allow connecting a laptop via USB, and expanding audio
channels via an AVB switch between multiple interfaces (or just direct
connection if you only have two devices).
On OS X you can use the Motu AVB as a soundcard connecting it to the
Ethernet port. I hope the day comes when this will work on Linux too.
Fingers crossed... Looking at how it was with Firewire, AVB will
probably work flawlessly on Linux once it is declared deprecated in 2025. /s

m
Len Ovens
2018-10-01 14:05:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Caudle
while searching for a simple multichannel audio
interface for playback, i came across the N-DAC 8 by miniDSP.
There is no standard AVB support in Linux currently, but the USB versions
from miniDSP should work just fine (basic XMOS based class compliant
behavior).
In other words, the N-DAC will not work with Linux (or windows) out of the
box though it should work with some of the macos computers (not sure about
the newer ones). If you are familiar with building code, and commandline
scripts to tack things together and have the right NIC... etc. etc. it
probably can be made to work. It is really an experimenters toy at this
point, nowhere near plug and play.

The u-dac 8 on the other hand, should just work. (same product but USB
rather than AVB)

--
Len Ovens
www.ovenwerks.net
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