[LAU] MOTU Ultralite AVB - possible to configure two connected devices without 430 EUR switch?

[Hanns Holger Rutz]

hi there,

i found a number of related threads, seems mainly @Anders Hellquist who
is using connected Ultralite AVB, but with the additional switch.

i'm trying to determine whether this interface or the slightly cheaper
mk4 (which has 2 more analog outs as far as i can see) makes sense for
my setup. i have a performance project where connecting with another AVB
device makes sense, so i'm tempted into the ultralite AVB. only...

- manual seems to indicate that you can maximally route 8 channels
either way, which is a bit silly given that I can already do that
directly with the two laptops connected and Zita running...
- also manual suggests that probably i won't be getting the web
interface served just with USB connection, but only ethernet, so
catch-22 if i want the two interfaces connected and not spend 430 EUR on
a bloody specialised switch. isn't it possible to set up the interface
when it's not connected to the second interface and then simply replug
the ethernet cable? i guess the problem will be that i can tell it to
send output channels to the other interface which is not yet visible? or
other idea - simply use an off-the-shelf ethernet plug, then disconnect
the laptop once the web interface is configured?

ideas? better options for a 9.5" usb CC interface with at least 8i8o
analog? i'm a happy user of scarlett 18i20, but it's often too big and
heavy for travel.

best, ..h.h..

[Niklas Reppel]

As an alternative, i recently got the Behringer UMC1820. It's 19", but very narrow and pretty light. Doesn't take up much more space than the MOTU if you remove the rack mounts, just in slightly more awkward proportions ... sounds decent and also sells super cheap in Germany.

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
hi there,
is using connected Ultralite AVB, but with the additional switch.
i'm trying to determine whether this interface or the slightly cheaper
mk4 (which has 2 more analog outs as far as i can see) makes sense for
my setup. i have a performance project where connecting with another AVB
device makes sense, so i'm tempted into the ultralite AVB. only...
- manual seems to indicate that you can maximally route 8 channels
either way, which is a bit silly given that I can already do that
directly with the two laptops connected and Zita running...
- also manual suggests that probably i won't be getting the web
interface served just with USB connection, but only ethernet, so
catch-22 if i want the two interfaces connected and not spend 430 EUR on
a bloody specialised switch. isn't it possible to set up the interface
when it's not connected to the second interface and then simply replug
the ethernet cable? i guess the problem will be that i can tell it to
send output channels to the other interface which is not yet visible? or
other idea - simply use an off-the-shelf ethernet plug, then disconnect
the laptop once the web interface is configured?
ideas? better options for a 9.5" usb CC interface with at least 8i8o
analog? i'm a happy user of scarlett 18i20, but it's often too big and
heavy for travel.
best, ..h.h..

[Hanns Holger Rutz]

thanks niklas; the behringer is certainly a good option with only 1/3 of
the cost; nevertheless, i'm still eyeing the 9.5" format, also since the
motu is just 1.1kg versus 1.8kg for the behringer (well, and focusrite
being the monster at 3.3kg). and for cheap installations, i can even
drop to like a logilink 8-channel interface with mini jacks ;)

best, ...h.h...

Post by Niklas Reppel
As an alternative, i recently got the Behringer UMC1820. It's 19", but
very narrow and pretty light. Doesn't take up much more space than the
MOTU if you remove the rack mounts, just in slightly more awkward
proportions ... sounds decent and also sells super cheap in Germany.
Am 16. Oktober 2018 01:58:34 MESZ schrieb Hanns Holger Rutz
hi there,
is using connected Ultralite AVB, but with the additional switch.
i'm trying to determine whether this interface or the slightly cheaper
mk4 (which has 2 more analog outs as far as i can see) makes sense for
my setup. i have a performance project where connecting with another AVB
device makes sense, so i'm tempted into the ultralite AVB. only...
- manual seems to indicate that you can maximally route 8 channels
either way, which is a bit silly given that I can already do that
directly with the two laptops connected and Zita running...
- also manual suggests that probably i won't be getting the web
interface served just with USB connection, but only ethernet, so
catch-22 if i want the two interfaces connected and not spend 430 EUR on
a bloody specialised switch. isn't it possible to set up the interface
when it's not connected to the second interface and then simply replug
the ethernet cable? i guess the problem will be that i can tell it to
send output channels to the other interface which is not yet visible? or
other idea - simply use an off-the-shelf ethernet plug, then disconnect
the laptop once the web interface is configured?
ideas? better options for a 9.5" usb CC interface with at least 8i8o
analog? i'm a happy user of scarlett 18i20, but it's often too big and
heavy for travel.
best, ..h.h..
--
Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-GerÀt mit K-9 Mail gesendet.
_______________________________________________
Linux-audio-user mailing list
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
hi there,
is using connected Ultralite AVB, but with the additional switch.
i'm trying to determine whether this interface or the slightly cheaper
mk4 (which has 2 more analog outs as far as i can see) makes sense for
my setup. i have a performance project where connecting with another AVB
device makes sense, so i'm tempted into the ultralite AVB. only...
- manual seems to indicate that you can maximally route 8 channels
either way, which is a bit silly given that I can already do that
directly with the two laptops connected and Zita running...

The UltraLite AVB supports 3 AVB streams either way. If the target AVB
Motu card also supports AVB 3 streams (8 channels each) you can send up
to 24 channels.

The number of supported streams varies from card to card, details can be
found in the FAQ here:

https://motu.com/avb/avb-faq#q15

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
- also manual suggests that probably i won't be getting the web
interface served just with USB connection, but only ethernet, so
catch-22 if i want the two interfaces connected and not spend 430 EUR on
a bloody specialised switch.

I think that is the case, sorry. On exotic operating systems like OSX
there is a proxy in the driver that serves http through usb (I think) so
you can access the configuration pages without an ethernet cable.

AVB will only work through switches that support the protocol (like the
one Motu sells). So a normal switch will not do. There might be cheap
alternatives but I don't know of any. Some info I just found here:

https://support.biamp.com/Tesira/AVB/List_of_AVB-capable_Ethernet_switches

You can connect two Motu cards back to back, but then you cannot add a
computer to the mix without an AVB switch (actually the Motu AVB switch
has a non-AVB port where I normally connect the computer).

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
isn't it possible to set up the interface
when it's not connected to the second interface and then simply replug
the ethernet cable? i guess the problem will be that i can tell it to
send output channels to the other interface which is not yet visible?

I forget the exact sequence, but yes, you need to connect the AVB
streams together by selecting from the web gui (I thin on the target
Motu you have to select from a popup on a given stream a currently
offered stream from another card). Once they are connected, they
reconnect automatically if the ethernet cable is unplugged and then
plugged in again.

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
or other idea - simply use an off-the-shelf ethernet plug, then disconnect
the laptop once the web interface is configured?

I have not tried that, I imagine it would not work because AVB will not
go through and the cards will not see each other streams'.

As to the cards themselves...

WARNING: the latest versions of Motu AVB cards seem to break the class
compliant driver. The symptom is that on the receiving end (a Linux
computer running Jack) the channels seem to rotate in blocks of 8. So,
if you are sending a signal on channel #1 and receiving it on Jack, it
will suddenly appear after a while on #9 and then move on to #17 (if you
have that many) so on and so forth. Fun. Downgrading the firmware seems
to cure that problem. I have seen this in an UltraLite AVB and a 1248
(and I think on a 24ai as well).

WARNING: Another "feature" lost on an upgrade to the latest is the
ability (on some cards, 16A, 24ai, 24ao) to have three usb modes, one of
them enabling you to use up to 64 channels on usb2 if the sample rate is
restricted to 44.1 and 48KHz. I have had to downgrade cards to be able
to keep using that. Luckily all the firmware versions are available
online and so far the downgrade has always worked (fingers crossed...).
A pain.

-- Fernando


PS: I created and maintain a 56.8 3D diffusion system (in our small
concert hall, the Stage) that has now 8 (yes, eight) Motu cards
connected together through AVB. You can imagine it is not necessarily
fun to deal with firmware stuff like this.

I hate products that you can buy and never know if they will keep
working as initially advertised when you "upgrade", sigh

[Moshe Werner]

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
WARNING: Another "feature" lost on an upgrade to the latest is the
ability (on some cards, 16A, 24ai, 24ao) to have three usb modes, one of
them enabling you to use up to 64 channels on usb2 if the sample rate is
restricted to 44.1 and 48KHz. I have had to downgrade cards to be able
to keep using that. Luckily all the firmware versions are available
online and so far the downgrade has always worked (fingers crossed...).
A pain.
-- Fernando

I can confirm that! I had to downgrade my 1248 too, the newest version was
giving only 24 channels via class compliant driver, on top of that I was
getting a lot of xruns. I mean thousands.
Downgraded the firmware and for now it's working.

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
PS: I created and maintain a 56.8 3D diffusion system (in our small
concert hall, the Stage) that has now 8 (yes, eight) Motu cards
connected together through AVB. You can imagine it is not necessarily
fun to deal with firmware stuff like this.
I hate products that you can buy and never know if they will keep
working as initially advertised when you "upgrade", sigh
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Linux-audio-user mailing list
https://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-user

[Hanns Holger Rutz]

thanks fernando for the indepth discussion and the links to alternative
switches; seems indeed that the motu one is on the cheap side of the
spectrum. anyway, what we'll do is test a bit with the devices that our
friends and colleagues have and see if we find a setup that allows us to
configure from two linux boxes without an explicit switch. that firmware
thing doesn't sound promising for the future investment in the box,
though. but then the ultralite avb is still half the price of a fireface
ucx (which exceeds my budget, and the headphone combo 7/8 jack was a
shitty idea), so even if one doesn't use avb streams it's the better
option i guess.

best, ..h.h..

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
hi there,
is using connected Ultralite AVB, but with the additional switch.
i'm trying to determine whether this interface or the slightly cheaper
mk4 (which has 2 more analog outs as far as i can see) makes sense for
my setup. i have a performance project where connecting with another AVB
device makes sense, so i'm tempted into the ultralite AVB. only...
- manual seems to indicate that you can maximally route 8 channels
either way, which is a bit silly given that I can already do that
directly with the two laptops connected and Zita running...

The UltraLite AVB supports 3 AVB streams either way. If the target AVB
Motu card also supports AVB 3 streams (8 channels each) you can send up
to 24 channels.
The number of supported streams varies from card to card, details can be
https://motu.com/avb/avb-faq#q15

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
- also manual suggests that probably i won't be getting the web
interface served just with USB connection, but only ethernet, so
catch-22 if i want the two interfaces connected and not spend 430 EUR on
a bloody specialised switch.

I think that is the case, sorry. On exotic operating systems like OSX
there is a proxy in the driver that serves http through usb (I think) so
you can access the configuration pages without an ethernet cable.
AVB will only work through switches that support the protocol (like the
one Motu sells). So a normal switch will not do. There might be cheap
https://support.biamp.com/Tesira/AVB/List_of_AVB-capable_Ethernet_switches
You can connect two Motu cards back to back, but then you cannot add a
computer to the mix without an AVB switch (actually the Motu AVB switch
has a non-AVB port where I normally connect the computer).

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
isn't it possible to set up the interface
when it's not connected to the second interface and then simply replug
the ethernet cable? i guess the problem will be that i can tell it to
send output channels to the other interface which is not yet visible?

I forget the exact sequence, but yes, you need to connect the AVB
streams together by selecting from the web gui (I thin on the target
Motu you have to select from a popup on a given stream a currently
offered stream from another card). Once they are connected, they
reconnect automatically if the ethernet cable is unplugged and then
plugged in again.

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
or other idea - simply use an off-the-shelf ethernet plug, then disconnect
the laptop once the web interface is configured?

I have not tried that, I imagine it would not work because AVB will not
go through and the cards will not see each other streams'.
As to the cards themselves...
WARNING: the latest versions of Motu AVB cards seem to break the class
compliant driver. The symptom is that on the receiving end (a Linux
computer running Jack) the channels seem to rotate in blocks of 8. So,
if you are sending a signal on channel #1 and receiving it on Jack, it
will suddenly appear after a while on #9 and then move on to #17 (if you
have that many) so on and so forth. Fun. Downgrading the firmware seems
to cure that problem. I have seen this in an UltraLite AVB and a 1248
(and I think on a 24ai as well).
WARNING: Another "feature" lost on an upgrade to the latest is the
ability (on some cards, 16A, 24ai, 24ao) to have three usb modes, one of
them enabling you to use up to 64 channels on usb2 if the sample rate is
restricted to 44.1 and 48KHz. I have had to downgrade cards to be able
to keep using that. Luckily all the firmware versions are available
online and so far the downgrade has always worked (fingers crossed...).
A pain.
-- Fernando
PS: I created and maintain a 56.8 3D diffusion system (in our small
concert hall, the Stage) that has now 8 (yes, eight) Motu cards
connected together through AVB. You can imagine it is not necessarily
fun to deal with firmware stuff like this.
I hate products that you can buy and never know if they will keep
working as initially advertised when you "upgrade", sigh

[Paul Davis]

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:28 AM Fernando Lopez-Lezcano <

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
I think that is the case, sorry. On exotic operating systems like OSX
there is a proxy in the driver that serves http through usb (I think) so
you can access the configuration pages without an ethernet cable.

It's much simpler than this, AFAIU. OS X and Windows have drivers for
IP-over-USB (compared to the more normal IP-over-Ethernet or IP-over-Wifi).
The MOTU box supports this on the other end too, so you're really just
connecting entirely normally to the http server on the MOTU, but via
IP-over-USB.

There is some evidence of a Linux version of IP-over-USB but from what I
could tell it isn't ready for use for this particular purpose.

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
WARNING: the latest versions of Motu AVB cards seem to break the class
compliant driver. The symptom is that on the receiving end (a Linux
computer running Jack) the channels seem to rotate in blocks of 8. So,

I don't know how "latest" you mean. I bought mine well over a year ago, and
it has had this behaviour since I bought it. I was not convinced that it
was the MOTU's fault, or rather that it just need some USB audio quirk
added to stop it from happening. Alas, the days of me diving into the
kernel driver to figure out what is happening are long over.

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

Post by Paul Davis
On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 2:28 AM Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
I think that is the case, sorry. On exotic operating systems like OSX
there is a proxy in the driver that serves http through usb (I think) so
you can access the configuration pages without an ethernet cable.
It's much simpler than this, AFAIU. OS X and Windows have drivers for
IP-over-USB (compared to the more normal IP-over-Ethernet or
IP-over-Wifi). The MOTU box supports this on the other end too, so
you're really just connecting entirely normally to the http server on
the MOTU, but via IP-over-USB.

Ah, thanks for the clarification (the proxy thing was just speculation)

Post by Paul Davis
There is some evidence of a Linux version of IP-over-USB but from what I
could tell it isn't ready for use for this particular purpose.
WARNING: the latest versions of Motu AVB cards seem to break the class
compliant driver. The symptom is that on the receiving end (a Linux
computer running Jack) the channels seem to rotate in blocks of 8. So,
I don't know how "latest" you mean. I bought mine well over a year ago,
and it has had this behaviour since I bought it. I was not convinced
that it was the MOTU's fault, or rather that it just need some USB audio
quirk added to stop it from happening.

Well, "latest" actually is old old. For the 24ao/24ai/16A cards 1.2.8+
supported 64 channels over USB with the class compliant driver and
worked fairly well, 1.2.9+ killed that feature (which was _added_ to the
originally released firmware - that feature enabled me to use the card
for my purposes, killing the feature made the card useless for me unless
I downgraded). You might want to try 1.2.x in your card.

For the 1248 1.3.x has the "channels hop all over" feature, 1.2.8 fixes
that. I don't exactly remember my quick test of the UltraLite AVB which
I bought very recently (same issue), but I think I downgraded again to
1.2.x to make it work - but that was a very quick test before a trip,
and I gave up on using it, so my memory is fuzzy...

So, 1.3.x is bad, 1.2.8 good, 1.2.9 maybe good depending on your needs.

BTW, I went through all the hoops in Motu's site to report the drop of
the "64 channels over USB2" feature as a bug. It took them a while to
understand, but eventually they got it and said it was not coming back
as it was causing them "problems". I never mentioned Linux by name but
only spoke about the broken behavior in the class compliant driver (but
anyone that knows a bit about audio would realize what was it being used
for).

Obviously they told me they still support 64 channels over USB2 using
their proprietary driver (you can see their endpoints in a detailed
lsusb)... Oh well.

As you say, maybe it is possible to add a quirk or whatever to make this
work with the latest firmware (but in my case I do need 64 channels over
USB2 so the latest firmware is a no-no). I'm not going to dive into the
kernel either :-(

The real solution to all this (at least from my point of view) would be
to get the full AVB stack working in Linux for a native connection to
the AVB streams - and the Jack support needed to bring it to the Jack
world. I'm forever meaning to do this but I suspect I will never have
the time (some time ago I managed to get Linux to see the card and sync
to it, but never even tried discovery and streaming). Still 24 hours in
a day last time I checked...

To all that have seen this bug I strongly encourage you to waste some
good time and report the bug in the class compliant driver to Motu. I
don't know for a fact it is a bug in their firmware but it was working
before and it is broken now.

-- Fernando

Post by Paul Davis
Alas, the days of me diving into
the kernel driver to figure out what is happening are long over.

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

...

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano

Post by Paul Davis
I don't know how "latest" you mean. I bought mine well over a year ago,
and it has had this behaviour since I bought it. I was not convinced
that it was the MOTU's fault, or rather that it just need some USB audio
quirk added to stop it from happening.

Well, "latest" actually is old old. For the 24ao/24ai/16A cards 1.2.8+
supported 64 channels over USB with the class compliant driver and
worked fairly well, 1.2.9+ killed that feature (which was _added_ to the
originally released firmware - that feature enabled me to use the card
for my purposes, killing the feature made the card useless for me unless
I downgraded). You might want to try 1.2.x in your card.

Correction (just now testing again):

For the UltraLite AVB, at least for my very recent hardware version,
firmware 1.2.8 and 1.2.9 do not install (the Motu claims it is too old
for the card, try with a newer one).

Firmware 1.3.2+520 does install, and it looks like it does not have the
"input channels hop over groups of 8 every once in a while" feature. I
presume 1.3.4+ breaks usb input.

-- Fernando

[Hanns Holger Rutz]

Hi Fernando,

so would that imply that if you buy a new box (latest hardware), you
cannot install the old firmware that allows usage of all I/O in CC mode?

best, ...h.h...

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
...

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano

Post by Paul Davis
I don't know how "latest" you mean. I bought mine well over a year ago,
and it has had this behaviour since I bought it. I was not convinced
that it was the MOTU's fault, or rather that it just need some USB audio
quirk added to stop it from happening.

Well, "latest" actually is old old. For the 24ao/24ai/16A cards 1.2.8+
supported 64 channels over USB with the class compliant driver and
worked fairly well, 1.2.9+ killed that feature (which was _added_ to the
originally released firmware - that feature enabled me to use the card
for my purposes, killing the feature made the card useless for me unless
I downgraded). You might want to try 1.2.x in your card.

For the UltraLite AVB, at least for my very recent hardware version,
firmware 1.2.8 and 1.2.9 do not install (the Motu claims it is too old
for the card, try with a newer one).
Firmware 1.3.2+520 does install, and it looks like it does not have the
"input channels hop over groups of 8 every once in a while" feature. I
presume 1.3.4+ breaks usb input.
-- Fernando

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
Hi Fernando,
so would that imply that if you buy a new box (latest hardware), you
cannot install the old firmware that allows usage of all I/O in CC mode?

Sorry for the delay. I don't know what "CC mode" is...
-- Fernando

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano
...

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano

Post by Paul Davis
I don't know how "latest" you mean. I bought mine well over a year ago,
and it has had this behaviour since I bought it. I was not convinced
that it was the MOTU's fault, or rather that it just need some USB audio
quirk added to stop it from happening.

Well, "latest" actually is old old. For the 24ao/24ai/16A cards 1.2.8+
supported 64 channels over USB with the class compliant driver and
worked fairly well, 1.2.9+ killed that feature (which was _added_ to the
originally released firmware - that feature enabled me to use the card
for my purposes, killing the feature made the card useless for me unless
I downgraded). You might want to try 1.2.x in your card.

For the UltraLite AVB, at least for my very recent hardware version,
firmware 1.2.8 and 1.2.9 do not install (the Motu claims it is too old
for the card, try with a newer one).
Firmware 1.3.2+520 does install, and it looks like it does not have the
"input channels hop over groups of 8 every once in a while" feature. I
presume 1.3.4+ breaks usb input.

[Max]

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
Hi Fernando,
so would that imply that if you buy a new box (latest hardware), you
cannot install the old firmware that allows usage of all I/O in CC mode?

Sorry for the delay. I don't know what "CC mode" is...
-- Fernando

"Class Compliant". Short for "Universal Serial Bus Audio Device Class
Compliant" also known as "Driverless", "Plug-and-Play" and "works with
mobile devices from Apple..."

[Fernando Lopez-Lezcano]

Post by Max

Post by Fernando Lopez-Lezcano

Post by Hanns Holger Rutz
Hi Fernando,
so would that imply that if you buy a new box (latest hardware), you
cannot install the old firmware that allows usage of all I/O in CC mode?

Sorry for the delay. I don't know what "CC mode" is...

"Class Compliant". Short for "Universal Serial Bus Audio Device Class
Compliant" also known as "Driverless", "Plug-and-Play" and "works with
mobile devices from Apple..."

I'm testing the UltraLite AVB always in CC mode (see, I learned :-). The
very latest firmware that I tested with has a problem where channels hop
around in multiples of eight. Going back a little bit it does seem to
work fine (1.3.2+520).

-- Fernando