Discussion:
MDK sound-RPMs troubles / Sound in Slackware?
(too old to reply)
Moeflon
2003-04-01 03:21:01 UTC
Permalink
I think I'm ready to move away from MDK...

Been messing around the last couple of days with MDK 9.1(rc3) Or I did
something wrong, or urpmi has some probs, anyhow, more than 3/4 of the
sound rpms I tried to install from the 9.1 plf sources seem to be
corrupted (as I may believe what urpmi tells me)

=> Does anybody knows this comes? Is it normal?



I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
Slackware.

=> Does anybody have any idea how difficult/easy it is to build a
sound-workstation on slack? any links?


Been working on linux for a bit over a year now. Really nice OS.
Wonderful to see how things are getting better all the time!!


Karel (alias Moeflon)
Bryan Koschmann - GKT
2003-04-01 03:38:01 UTC
Permalink
Karel,

While I've just started my experience with sound under Linux, I can tell
you now, since moving to Slack over a year ago, my ulcers have gone away,
my hair is growing back, i've quit drinking, and I always have a smile on
my face. Okay, not quite, but you ge the picture. I've been using Linux
for over about 4 years now. i started with Redhat 4.2. I got fed up with
not being able to find RPMs, and then trying to compile the source only to
find missing requirements (source rpms) that it needed, only to not find
THOSE RPMs. With Slackware, I have no problems whatsoever, I only need the
tarballs or CVS downloads.

Granted, Slackware does have it's own type of "Packages", but they are far
more equivalent to tarballs than an RPM is.

Not to mention, testing Redhat 7.2 and 7.3 on an AMD k6/2-550 was almost
completely unusable due to slowness. Slackware 8.0 runs perfectly.

Good luck on your move. I'm sure you will be quite delighted to find
pretty much everything works the first time (provided you follow the
directions :P )

Bryan

On 1 Apr 2003, Moeflon wrote:

|I think I'm ready to move away from MDK...
|
|Been messing around the last couple of days with MDK 9.1(rc3) Or I did
|something wrong, or urpmi has some probs, anyhow, more than 3/4 of the
|sound rpms I tried to install from the 9.1 plf sources seem to be
|corrupted (as I may believe what urpmi tells me)
|
|=> Does anybody knows this comes? Is it normal?
|
|
|
|I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
|Slackware.
|
|=> Does anybody have any idea how difficult/easy it is to build a
| sound-workstation on slack? any links?
|
|
|Been working on linux for a bit over a year now. Really nice OS.
|Wonderful to see how things are getting better all the time!!
|
|
|Karel (alias Moeflon)
|
DevDSP Info
2003-04-01 04:10:01 UTC
Permalink
One of the major benefits of Slackware is that it doesn't use GUI
configuration tools. In distros that do have these, they work
fine 80% of the time, but taking care of the remaining 20% is a
royal pain.

Another major benefit is that it's very clean - it's quite possible to
have an almost complete understanding of the layout of a Slackware
system, something that, for me anyways, is impossible on other distros
that swamp everything with hundreds of vendor-specific configuration
files.

If you like learning new stuff and if you can get into the habit of
RTFM-ing and using Google, Slackware comes highly recommended.

Just be aware that it will take a while before you've set it up as an
audio workstation - it doesn't even enable sound out of the box!

However, it's definitely doable, and if you succeed, you'll have a
system that's set up just the way you want it, with no extra cruft
lying around.


take care,

Matthijs de Jonge
http://devdsp.net - news and resources for computer musicians
Post by Moeflon
I think I'm ready to move away from MDK...
Been messing around the last couple of days with MDK 9.1(rc3) Or I did
something wrong, or urpmi has some probs, anyhow, more than 3/4 of the
sound rpms I tried to install from the 9.1 plf sources seem to be
corrupted (as I may believe what urpmi tells me)
=> Does anybody knows this comes? Is it normal?
I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
Slackware.
=> Does anybody have any idea how difficult/easy it is to build a
sound-workstation on slack? any links?
Been working on linux for a bit over a year now. Really nice OS.
Wonderful to see how things are getting better all the time!!
Karel (alias Moeflon)
Frank Barknecht
2003-04-01 04:47:01 UTC
Permalink
Hallo,
Post by Moeflon
I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
Slackware.
=> Does anybody have any idea how difficult/easy it is to build a
sound-workstation on slack? any links?
Isn't Slack just binary and/or source tarballs? Why not keep Mandrake
but don't use the package system and install everything from source?
Or if you want a package system done right maybe you should try Debian?

Sorry, I can't be more specific but I never used Mandrake and I left
Slackware several years ago. IMO the packaging system in Debian helps
a lot in keeping a system free of /usr/local/-cruft and conflicts.

ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Anahata
2003-04-01 05:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Barknecht
Isn't Slack just binary and/or source tarballs? Why not keep Mandrake
but don't use the package system and install everything from source?
You're still left with a bunch of impenetrable configuration files and
scripts, which I don't think you get with Slackware, nor so much with
Debian.
Post by Frank Barknecht
Or if you want a package system done right maybe you should try Debian?
I'm using Debian. I was very disappointed with Mandrake when I found out
that, just because it used RPM patches, that didn't mean you could
download (RedHat) RPM's from anywhere and install them.

Gentoo is becoming popular with the folks who like a clean distro and
prefer to know what's going on inside it, but I haven't any direct
experience of it.
--
Anahata
***@treewind.co.uk Tel: 01638 720444
http://www.treewind.co.uk Mob: 07976 263827
Austin
2003-04-01 10:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anahata
I was very disappointed with Mandrake when I found out
that, just because it used RPM patches, that didn't mean you could
download (RedHat) RPM's from anywhere and install them.
That is not accurate.
Mandrake and RedHat do use the same RPM system. You can install either RPM on
either system. The fact is, due to dynamically linked libraries, you're best
to use RPMs built on the distro you're using.

Austin
--
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Rob
2003-04-01 10:34:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Austin
Mandrake and RedHat do use the same RPM system. You can install either RPM
on either system. The fact is, due to dynamically linked libraries, you're
best to use RPMs built on the distro you're using.
I've noticed in recent versions that rpm resource naming has started to vary
enough between RH and Mandrake that when you try to install a RH package
sometimes it complains that some library isn't there because Mandrake's
naming scheme mandates a "lib" in front of the name. You could get around
this by adding extra "Provides: " lines in the libs' spec files, though that
will naturally cause problems with libraries that also come with executables,
but I've never wanted to try to rebuild that many RPM's from the base
distribution myself.

Rob
Austin
2003-04-01 11:01:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
I've noticed in recent versions that rpm resource naming has started to vary
enough between RH and Mandrake that when you try to install a RH package
sometimes it complains that some library isn't there because Mandrake's
naming scheme mandates a "lib" in front of the name. You could get around
this by adding extra "Provides: " lines in the libs' spec files, though that
will naturally cause problems with libraries that also come with executables,
but I've never wanted to try to rebuild that many RPM's from the base
distribution myself.
Oh of course. Like I said, they are not MADE to be interchangeable. That's
not to say we're using some alien form of RPM though. I just didn't want and
false info flying around.

The reason we have different lib names is because we have a much stricter
library policy than RedHat. All libraries start with 'lib' and end with the
so-number. That way, you can install several so-versions of the same library
on mandrake, which you can't do on RedHat.

(Sorry if this is getting off topic.)

Austin
--
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Speaker to Vegetables
2003-04-01 12:30:00 UTC
Permalink
Sorry, Austin, but in practice, installing an RPM intended for one
distribution on another distribution, is not particularly likely to
work. It may refuse to install unless you "force" it. It may install
and destabilize your system. I find it much easier and safer to install
from source tarballs than to install a "foreign" RPM. In theory an RPM
package could be crafted and tested to be installable on multiple
versions or distributions, but this is rarely done by those who build
RPM packages. Perhaps the Linux Standard Base will change this,
eventually.
Post by Austin
Post by Anahata
I was very disappointed with Mandrake when I found out
that, just because it used RPM patches, that didn't mean you could
download (RedHat) RPM's from anywhere and install them.
That is not accurate.
Mandrake and RedHat do use the same RPM system. You can install
either RPM on either system. The fact is, due to dynamically linked
libraries, you're best to use RPMs built on the distro you're using.
Austin
--
"Can you remember the future? Forget it!"
Austin
2003-04-01 14:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Speaker to Vegetables
I find it much easier and safer to install
from source tarballs than to install a "foreign" RPM.
I thought that's what I was implying. :-)
Post by Speaker to Vegetables
Perhaps the Linux Standard Base will change this,
eventually.
Pfft. I doubt it.
Austin
Post by Speaker to Vegetables
Post by Austin
That is not accurate.
Mandrake and RedHat do use the same RPM system. You can install
either RPM on either system. The fact is, due to dynamically linked
libraries, you're best to use RPMs built on the distro you're using.
--
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Rob
2003-04-01 22:44:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Speaker to Vegetables
Sorry, Austin, but in practice, installing an RPM intended for one
distribution on another distribution, is not particularly likely to
work. It may refuse to install unless you "force" it. It may install
and destabilize your system. I find it much easier and safer to install
from source tarballs than to install a "foreign" RPM. In theory an RPM
And I find it much easier and safer to find the source RPM to that foreign
RPM, try rpm --rebuild, and if that doesn't work, make the couple of lines of
necessary changes in the spec file and stick the resulting
now-Mandrake-specific RPM out on my website for anyone to use. Then if it
turns out I don't want it anymore, I'm not stuck looking for needles in the
haystack that is my filesystem when I want to uninstall it, nor do I have to
worry about it stomping some other application's files as has been known to
happen.

I'm not ashamed of being a usability nazi. I won't be satisfied until Linux
is easier to use for non-geeks and easier to manage in large quantities than
both Mac and Windows, and I'm doing what little I can to help that along. I
don't think it's any coincidence that all these usable audio apps started
appearing once the Linux desktops started maturing, and I doubt the trend is
going to reverse.

Rob
t***@gmx.de
2003-04-01 05:22:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Barknecht
Hallo,
Post by Moeflon
I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
Slackware.
=> Does anybody have any idea how difficult/easy it is to build a
sound-workstation on slack? any links?
Isn't Slack just binary and/or source tarballs? Why not keep Mandrake
but don't use the package system and install everything from source?
Or if you want a package system done right maybe you should try Debian?
Sorry, I can't be more specific but I never used Mandrake and I left
Slackware several years ago. IMO the packaging system in Debian helps
a lot in keeping a system free of /usr/local/-cruft and conflicts.
have a look at gentoo. your machine will download source tarballs and
install them automatically. additionally it does the make install step
in a sandbox so that it knows what the package installed and can remove
it cleanly.

Its like installing from source but without the patching and stuff...
installing ardour is a matter of
sh# emerge ardour

this command will fetch current ardour-cvs and its dependencies and then
build....

look at www.gentoo.org...
--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language
Frank Barknecht
2003-04-01 05:46:01 UTC
Permalink
Hallo,
Post by t***@gmx.de
have a look at gentoo. your machine will download source tarballs and
install them automatically. additionally it does the make install step
in a sandbox so that it knows what the package installed and can remove
it cleanly.
Its like installing from source but without the patching and stuff...
installing ardour is a matter of
sh# emerge ardour
this command will fetch current ardour-cvs and its dependencies and then
build....
Hey, we can do this, too.
t***@gmx.de
2003-04-01 06:59:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Frank Barknecht
Hallo,
Post by t***@gmx.de
have a look at gentoo. your machine will download source tarballs and
install them automatically. additionally it does the make install step
in a sandbox so that it knows what the package installed and can remove
it cleanly.
Its like installing from source but without the patching and stuff...
installing ardour is a matter of
sh# emerge ardour
this command will fetch current ardour-cvs and its dependencies and then
build....
Hey, we can do this, too.
Frank Barknecht
2003-04-01 09:43:01 UTC
Permalink
Hallo,
but when i wanted to install galan from source on your machine i
ran into problems because the gdk-pixbuf-dev package wanted to uninstall
gnome2 and because you had gone downstairs i could not proceed...
Yeah, debian dependencies can be equivalent to dll-hell in windows.
But I'm running Debian unstable and there sometimes the dependencies
just aren't fully okay.

ciao
--
Frank Barknecht _ ______footils.org__
Luke Yelavich
2003-04-01 07:42:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi Anahata
More to that, Mandrake has a kernel that has a lot of patches and extras
added. This means that if you want to add a patch like low latency or
preempt, you have to grab another kernel RPM, as the patches don't apply
cleanly to the Mandrake kernel source. This is especially annoying for
those stuck on dial-up, like myself.

Regards
Luke
Post by Anahata
You're still left with a bunch of impenetrable configuration files and
scripts, which I don't think you get with Slackware, nor so much with
Debian.
Daniel James
2003-04-01 08:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Yelavich
More to that, Mandrake has a kernel that has a lot of patches and extras
added.
Like all the others? I believe only Slackware ships a Linus kernel, out of the
better known distros.
Post by Luke Yelavich
This means that if you want to add a patch like low latency or
preempt, you have to grab another kernel RPM
...which is very easy to install. Don't forget that most computer users have
never compiled anything in their life. The expectation of end-user kernel
rebuilds should really be a thing of the past.

In the serious audio space, I believe the main competitor to Linux is Apple OS
X. Only distros with plenty of pre-configuration stand a chance against OS X,
since most people who work in the sound industry are not C programmers. Out
of all the user-orientated distros, Mandrake is the only one I know that
respects and actually believes in free software.

Cheers

Daniel
Rob
2003-04-01 10:26:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel James
...which is very easy to install. Don't forget that most computer users
have never compiled anything in their life. The expectation of end-user
kernel rebuilds should really be a thing of the past.
Indeed, my goal when setting up Linux for end users is to try and make sure
they never even see a command line. Musicians aren't geeks and neither are
most corporate types.

Slackware is great for when you have that one machine in your mom's basement
and it doesn't matter to you to keep track of what file came from where or to
be able to uninstall stuff cleanly. It's sort of the Windows model of
installing software, only with source.

Gentoo is sort of the best of both worlds, but I don't feel like waiting 36
hours for it to compile everything I need for a usable desktop, whether
corporate or musical.

Debian is nifty except for the installer. I understand they're working on it
and maybe in another year I'll be able to recommend it to non-technical
people.

Lindows/Xandros/Lycoris are just too limited for musicians or for the kind of
people who pay me to make Linux work for them.

Red Hat is okay as a server distro but they just don't seem to understand the
desktop and unless you're a power user who knows enough to install apt-rpm,
you're stuck in dependency hell.

I use and recommend Mandrake (but never switch to the latest and greatest
until a month or two after it's out) because urpmi is sort of a nice
compromise between plain RPM, and apt. Its installer is simpler than the
various Windows installers and I can set up my own RPM repositories with
automagical dependency checking that my users can set up and install packages
without ever having to see a bash prompt. The only downside I can see to
Mandrake is that they're in receivership right now and that makes them a big
question mark for versions subsequent to 9.1.

There are certainly problems even with the automagical dependency checking
systems, like someone will build a package that needed some new obscure
library that they had installed from cooker (the unstable Mandrake branch) or
from source and didn't bother to provide an RPM for, but people generally
find those pretty quick.

There are lots more Mandrake urpmi sources than just what you find at Mandrake
mirrors, to wit:

http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/urpmiweb.php - make sure you click "show
specific sources too" as it includes a lot more.

A couple that aren't listed there include
http://rpm.nyvalls.se/9.0/RPMS - thac's RPM's, a huge collection of audio apps
and
http://www.kudla.org/rpm/i586 - my own collection which isn't really audio
related but as long as i'm mentioning sources... ;)

Karel, I definitely feel your pain with regards to dependency hell, but I
won't be running 9.1 until I think enough people have guinea-pigged it for
me. If anyone running Mandrake 9.0 has problems with a particular audio app
RPM I'd be happy to rebuild it, stick it in my repository and work out
dependency issues with you. That way everyone (well, mdk 9.0 users) can
benefit.

Rob
Austin
2003-04-01 11:04:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
There are lots more Mandrake urpmi sources than just what you find at Mandrake
Don't forget that we're roughtly tripled the number of audio RPMs included
since 9.0.

Also don't forget the club servers (free access to updated RPMs). There are
many; here's an example
http://mandrake.redbox.cz/Mandrake-devel/unsupported/MandrakeClub

Austin
--
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
homepage: www.groundstate.ca
luis jure
2003-04-01 11:37:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Indeed, my goal when setting up Linux for end users is to try and make
sure they never even see a command line. Musicians aren't geeks [...]
mmm... let me see...

john chowning?
charles dodge?
paul lansky?
james dashow?

i could go on and on, and please note that i've been kind enough not to
even mention iannis xenakis.

i consider myself a musician. i studied composition more than seven years
at the university in my home town. everything very traditional, generous
amounts of harmony, counterpoint, fugue and orchestration.

i'm not a programmer and never studied anything related to computer
sciences. i guess i'm not a "geek", although i'm not completely sure what
the term means exactly. i just taught myself enough to be able to use a
command line, to build my own binaries from sources, and edit my
configuration files by hand using vim. and that i prefer to installing
precompiled rpms and using graphical tools for configuration. just my
personal preference. i use linuxfromscratch and very happy with it.

do not understand me wrong, i know perfectly well that many users,
musicians or not, prefer a different approach, and that distributions like
redhat and mandrake have done a lot to make linux more accessible to many
users. i have recommended redhat and planet ccrma to many of my students.

i'm reacting now because i'm just fed up with those generalizations saying
that "musicians" don't want to see a command line, "musicians" don't want
to compile, "musicians" want to have everything hidden, "musicians" don't
want to program, "musicians" don't want to learn anything new or different,
"musicians" are lazy, "musicians" are stupid....

there are many different kinds of musicians, you know. some of them got
their hands dirty programming. thanks to them, to people like chowning or
dodge, who are indeed great musicians, we have many of the tools available
today.

please excuse if i overreacted, i sincerely didn't mean to offend anyone.
it's just that i'm being a bit offended myself by all those assumptions
about musicians in general, that imply i'm not one of them.

best,

lj
Patrick Shirkey
2003-04-01 11:55:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by luis jure
please excuse if i overreacted, i sincerely didn't mean to offend anyone.
it's just that i'm being a bit offended myself by all those assumptions
about musicians in general, that imply i'm not one of them.
Cheer cheer,

Most musos worth a grain of salt get recognition from their skills at
manipulating their instruments. I take pride in the fact that as an
electronics muso I can rip apart the internals of my machines and build
it from inside out.

Their are some people who can't control their intruments but get by with
looks or contacts. Mostly I try to stay away from them.

There is also the odd random phenomena of a person with absolutely no
skillz who has so much heart that they just make sense. They don't
happen very often and when they do should be treasured like a fine...
ahem... wine ;)
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================

Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.

Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
Daniel James
2003-04-01 12:14:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by luis jure
i'm reacting now because i'm just fed up with those generalizations saying
that "musicians" don't want to see a command line, "musicians" don't want
to compile,
That's my experience. Outside of the Linux audio community, I haven't met a
musician who was interested in computers for their own sake. Generally, I
find musicians relate to computers as other artists do - as a tool which they
expect to 'just work' - or as something arcane and unreliable, and best
avoided altogether.
Post by luis jure
"musicians" don't want to learn anything new or different,
"musicians" are lazy, "musicians" are stupid....
I never said any of those things. I'm optimistic that Linux will soon provide
reliable creative tools that are widely accessible - not something we've ever
had before. I bet a Linux box now costs less in real terms than one decent
open reel tape recorder did in the 1950s.

Cheers

Daniel
Patrick Shirkey
2003-04-01 12:58:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel James
I never said any of those things. I'm optimistic that Linux will soon provide
reliable creative tools that are widely accessible
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink...

We have extreemely good tools already. The hard part is learning how to
run a stable machine. You won't find it any different on other OS's. If
you want to let people record two tracks without dropouts, then add some
fx you could do that easily 5 years ago on Linux.

If you want to let people make cutting edge music that blows everyone
away you need to teach them how to play the instrument and then, maybe,
they will come up with something innovative. My experience is one in ten
can sustain real creativity.

The rest of us are doomed to hobbyism and inferiority complexes ;]
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================

Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.

Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
Daniel James
2003-04-02 04:12:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Patrick Shirkey
We have extreemely good tools already.
As far as our studio is concerned, I'd have to say that the tools we want to
use (gui-based multitrack HD recorders) are excellent, but not quite
complete.

Audacity only recently added support for full duplex on Linux, for instance.
Version 1.1.3 (a beta) is the best yet, but it doesn't yet have the stability
that we expect from a Linux system. I think it will get there soon, though.
Post by Patrick Shirkey
The hard part is learning how to
run a stable machine. You won't find it any different on other OS's.
I used Mac OS and Windows back in the 90's, and I did find them less stable -
even with very mature apps. At least when a Linux app crashes it doesn't take
the system with it - and I'm much more confident about the risk of data loss
than I used to be.
Post by Patrick Shirkey
If
you want to let people record two tracks without dropouts, then add some
fx you could do that easily 5 years ago on Linux.
Perhaps I'd disagree with the word 'easily'. Five years ago, even getting your
soundcard to make a bleep could be non-trivial. First, patch and recompile
your kernel...

Cheers

Daniel
luis jure
2003-04-01 14:54:01 UTC
Permalink
el Tue, 1 Apr 2003 18:06:18 +0100
Post by Daniel James
Post by luis jure
"musicians" don't want to learn anything new or different,
"musicians" are lazy, "musicians" are stupid....
I never said any of those things.
of course you didn't, i didn't want to imply you had said that. my message
wasn't intended to be personal, nobody in the list has said like things, i
just wanted to show how one generalization can lead to another, and sooner
or later they'll reach a point you'll resent.

best,

lj

--
Rob
2003-04-01 22:49:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by luis jure
Post by Rob
sure they never even see a command line. Musicians aren't geeks [...]
mmm... let me see...
john chowning?
charles dodge?
paul lansky?
james dashow?
You'll have to forgive me for never having heard of any of those people. My
tastes are probably pretty mainstream compared to most reading this. I dare
say that I wouldn't care to listen to much music created by a musician who's
comfortable with creating his music with a command line interface.

I tend to go on a lot so I try to keep my words brief. In this case, you may
insert "by and large," before the word "musicians" in the above quote and
you'll see what I was getting at.

Rob
Guy Clotilde
2003-04-03 02:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by luis jure
i'm reacting now because i'm just fed up with those generalizations saying
that "musicians" don't want to see a command line, "musicians" don't want
to compile, "musicians" want to have everything hidden, "musicians" don't
want to program, "musicians" don't want to learn anything new or different,
"musicians" are lazy, "musicians" are stupid....
Hey! it's just me and my friends you are describing ;D

Seriously, I have compiled lots of audio apps successfully (alsa, mplayer, soundtracker...) and even rebuild my kernel for low-latency. But now I'm really happy with Planet CCRMA rpms.

cheers.
Guy CLO~
-----------------------------------------------
#ICQ 37736372
#219055 http://counter.li.org
-----------------------------------------------
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/guy.clotilde/index.html
-----------------------------------------------
Fernando Pablo Lopez-Lezcano
2003-04-01 15:13:01 UTC
Permalink
[a little bit late on this thread...]
Post by Rob
Red Hat is okay as a server distro but they just don't seem to understand the
desktop and unless you're a power user who knows enough to install apt-rpm,
you're stuck in dependency hell.
Hmmm, maybe not yet for "absolute beginners" but you don't need to be a
"power user" either. Surf to:
http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/
Follow the directions and get apt installed (no dependency hell), a
lowlat kernel, alsa and a bunch of audio/video apps.

-- Fernando
rob fell
2003-04-01 17:15:00 UTC
Permalink
I'd have to agree.

I spent some weeks getting a fresh gentoo partition running, getting ardour
working, only to get stopped dead in my tracks with a (not yet proven) kernel
bug in ext3 code.

I threw my hands in the air with disgust and had RH8 + planet going in 8 hours
(incl burning/verifying the ISOs) having never tried that route before
(thanks Fernando). I'm not a dummy, but I can read the instructions (Fernando
- may I suggest a link to an rpm repair page: I remember why I ditched
MDK/RH).

Tonight I captured 3 hours of rehearsal direct to disk. No glitches. Zero to
un-coordinated hero in a day....

R
Post by Fernando Pablo Lopez-Lezcano
[a little bit late on this thread...]
Post by Rob
Red Hat is okay as a server distro but they just don't seem to understand
the desktop and unless you're a power user who knows enough to install
apt-rpm, you're stuck in dependency hell.
Hmmm, maybe not yet for "absolute beginners" but you don't need to be a
http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/
Follow the directions and get apt installed (no dependency hell), a
lowlat kernel, alsa and a bunch of audio/video apps.
-- Fernando
Jan "Evil Twin" Depner
2003-04-01 17:45:00 UTC
Permalink
Sort of OT but, I hope you're not using ext3 for your audio data disk.
If so check this out -
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/Arcana.html. Specifically, Mark
Knecht's info on filesystem tests.

Jan
Post by rob fell
I'd have to agree.
I spent some weeks getting a fresh gentoo partition running, getting ardour
working, only to get stopped dead in my tracks with a (not yet proven) kernel
bug in ext3 code.
I threw my hands in the air with disgust and had RH8 + planet going in 8 hours
(incl burning/verifying the ISOs) having never tried that route before
(thanks Fernando). I'm not a dummy, but I can read the instructions (Fernando
- may I suggest a link to an rpm repair page: I remember why I ditched
MDK/RH).
Tonight I captured 3 hours of rehearsal direct to disk. No glitches. Zero to
un-coordinated hero in a day....
R
Post by Fernando Pablo Lopez-Lezcano
[a little bit late on this thread...]
Post by Rob
Red Hat is okay as a server distro but they just don't seem to understand
the desktop and unless you're a power user who knows enough to install
apt-rpm, you're stuck in dependency hell.
Hmmm, maybe not yet for "absolute beginners" but you don't need to be a
http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/planetccrma/software/
Follow the directions and get apt installed (no dependency hell), a
lowlat kernel, alsa and a bunch of audio/video apps.
-- Fernando
Mark Knecht
2003-04-01 17:58:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jan "Evil Twin" Depner
Sort of OT but, I hope you're not using ext3 for your audio data disk.
If so check this out -
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/Arcana.html. Specifically, Mark
Knecht's info on filesystem tests.
Jan
Jan,
I'd only offer that if ext3 does the job for a specific individual,
then I don't think there's anything wrong with using it. In most case
(except apparently current Gentoo!) ;-) it is better tested and probably
more stable than reiserfs. If someone knows they're going to only use so
many tracks and maybe isn't pushing the limits of what there hardware
can do, or doesn't possibly try to run their sound card at the very
lowest latencies all the time like you and I, then I would probably
recommend ext3.

On the other hand, since I do tend to push the limits of what my
hardware can do, should I EVER be able to run Alsa again, then at that
unknown date in the future I'll probably be running reiserfs. Problem
is, that date appears to be so far in the future anymore that I'm
starting to expect xfs to be meat and potatoes by then. ;-)

Cheers,
Mark
rob fell
2003-04-02 12:20:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mark Knecht
Post by Jan "Evil Twin" Depner
Sort of OT but, I hope you're not using ext3 for your audio data disk.
If so check this out -
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/Arcana.html. Specifically, Mark
Knecht's info on filesystem tests.
Jan
Jan,
I'd only offer that if ext3 does the job for a specific individual,
then I don't think there's anything wrong with using it. In most case
(except apparently current Gentoo!) ;-) it is better tested and probably
more stable than reiserfs. If someone knows they're going to only use so
many tracks and maybe isn't pushing the limits of what there hardware
can do, or doesn't possibly try to run their sound card at the very
lowest latencies all the time like you and I, then I would probably
recommend ext3.
On the other hand, since I do tend to push the limits of what my
hardware can do, should I EVER be able to run Alsa again, then at that
unknown date in the future I'll probably be running reiserfs. Problem
is, that date appears to be so far in the future anymore that I'm
starting to expect xfs to be meat and potatoes by then. ;-)
Cheers,
Mark
I didn't mean to slur Gentoo kernels in any way - I've only confirmed that the
ext3 sheduling storm patch hasn't been applied (nor is it included in the
stock 2.4.20 I downloaded). Since I'm (currently) running an ext3 partition
this is currently under suspicion for the total system lockups under jack.

I had already read Mark Knecht's filesystem tests - a very interesting and
informative read it is too Mark.

Since I'm currently getting the software side sorted out I haven't yet
upgraded beyond a SB16, hence no need for extreme tuning. When I get the
terratec ews88mt that is currently the object of my (audio) lust (and a
halfway decent desk) that situation will need to be revisited.

The nice thing is that the guys in the band are all now aware of what FSF can
do - even in the hands of the least literate band member.

R
Jan "Evil Twin" Depner
2003-04-02 12:50:00 UTC
Permalink
Rob,

You're gonna love the EWS88MT. It's basically an equivalent of my DSP
2000. I really like the envy24 chipset. Zero latency monitoring using
the internal mixer is the best! Once you get it you should seriously
consider moving to reiserfs (or XFS, I think Mark is right on that) if
you have a dedicated audio data disk. I could actually see a reduction
in xruns when I switched to reiserfs from ext3.

Jan
Post by rob fell
Post by Mark Knecht
Post by Jan "Evil Twin" Depner
Sort of OT but, I hope you're not using ext3 for your audio data disk.
If so check this out -
http://myweb.cableone.net/eviltwin69/Arcana.html. Specifically, Mark
Knecht's info on filesystem tests.
Jan
Jan,
I'd only offer that if ext3 does the job for a specific individual,
then I don't think there's anything wrong with using it. In most case
(except apparently current Gentoo!) ;-) it is better tested and probably
more stable than reiserfs. If someone knows they're going to only use so
many tracks and maybe isn't pushing the limits of what there hardware
can do, or doesn't possibly try to run their sound card at the very
lowest latencies all the time like you and I, then I would probably
recommend ext3.
On the other hand, since I do tend to push the limits of what my
hardware can do, should I EVER be able to run Alsa again, then at that
unknown date in the future I'll probably be running reiserfs. Problem
is, that date appears to be so far in the future anymore that I'm
starting to expect xfs to be meat and potatoes by then. ;-)
Cheers,
Mark
I didn't mean to slur Gentoo kernels in any way - I've only confirmed that the
ext3 sheduling storm patch hasn't been applied (nor is it included in the
stock 2.4.20 I downloaded). Since I'm (currently) running an ext3 partition
this is currently under suspicion for the total system lockups under jack.
I had already read Mark Knecht's filesystem tests - a very interesting and
informative read it is too Mark.
Since I'm currently getting the software side sorted out I haven't yet
upgraded beyond a SB16, hence no need for extreme tuning. When I get the
terratec ews88mt that is currently the object of my (audio) lust (and a
halfway decent desk) that situation will need to be revisited.
The nice thing is that the guys in the band are all now aware of what FSF can
do - even in the hands of the least literate band member.
R
Daniel James
2003-04-03 03:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by rob fell
Since I'm (currently) running an ext3 partition
this is currently under suspicion for the total system lockups under jack.
If you have two different disks in your box, I've found the kernel 'feature'
ideautotune can also cause lock-ups when disks are put under stress. You can
disable this in your boot loader, fortunately. Booting into failsafe mode (on
some distros) also disables ideautotune.

I'm still suprised that something which causes total lock-ups on otherwise
stable machines found it's way into the stable kernel series. I don't see
what's wrong with using hdparm if you want to optimise your drives.

Cheers

Daniel
Tim Hall
2003-04-01 19:49:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Musicians aren't geeks
Since when?
Rob
2003-04-01 22:55:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tim Hall
Post by Rob
Musicians aren't geeks
Since when?
Show me a musician who wants to take the time to patch his kernel and I'll
show you a musician who isn't getting any gigs.

Rob
tompoe
2003-04-01 23:24:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi: Times are changing. Soon, with the help and expertise of folks on this
list and others, recording studios will be as accessible as any pencil is
today.

We just put up the Mac basic recording studio recommendation, and will soon
follow that with an extraordinary PC-based basic recording studio
recommendation for folks wanting to start community-based recording studios
that offer free recording services for all local residents.
Thanks,
Tom Poe
Open Studios
Reno, NV
http://www.studioforrecording.org/
Post by Rob
Post by Tim Hall
Post by Rob
Musicians aren't geeks
Since when?
Show me a musician who wants to take the time to patch his kernel and I'll
show you a musician who isn't getting any gigs.
Rob
jordan muscott
2003-04-02 03:33:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by Tim Hall
Post by Rob
Musicians aren't geeks
Since when?
Show me a musician who wants to take the time to patch his kernel and I'll
show you a musician who isn't getting any gigs.
Rob
I'll show you several musicians who (when time permits outside a 9-5
job) take time to hack code, patch kernels, write music , and get
offered gigs. ( and yes, one of them is me).

Jordan.
Patrick Shirkey
2003-04-03 00:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by Tim Hall
Post by Rob
Musicians aren't geeks
Since when?
Show me a musician who wants to take the time to patch his kernel and I'll
show you a musician who isn't getting any gigs.
Well I'm playing regularly and this month have two gigs with an
estimated audience +/- 10000 :P
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================

Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.

Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
Tim Hall
2003-04-03 08:40:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by Tim Hall
Post by Rob
Musicians aren't geeks
Since when?
Show me a musician who wants to take the time to patch his kernel and I'll
show you a musician who isn't getting any gigs.
Have Mirror

tim hall

Austin
2003-04-01 10:23:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Yelavich
Hi Anahata
More to that, Mandrake has a kernel that has a lot of patches and extras
added. This means that if you want to add a patch like low latency or
preempt, you have to grab another kernel RPM, as the patches don't apply
cleanly to the Mandrake kernel source. This is especially annoying for those
stuck on dial-up, like myself.
We shipped the low-latency pre-emptible capabilities kernel with Mandrake 9.1.
You can install it with one command. (urpmi kernel-multimedia)
We also ship the vanilla kernel with every version, which you can also install
with one command. (urpmi kernel-linus)

Austin
--
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Luke Yelavich
2003-04-01 17:53:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi Daniel
Post by Daniel James
Like all the others? I believe only Slackware ships a Linus kernel, out of
the
better known distros.
Yes, the other distros do it as well, but from my experience at least,
Mandrake's kernel is the most patched. At least RedHat's default kernels in
RH8 have low latency.
Post by Daniel James
...which is very easy to install. Don't forget that most computer users have
never compiled anything in their life. The expectation of end-user kernel
rebuilds should really be a thing of the past.
If you want to use the latest version of ALSA, you still need to have
kernel sources and the like handy. That in a sense is building the kernel,
as you are adding to the kernel's contents.

I guess I was making a personal feeling known. I would rather have a
vanilla kernel source for a default distro kernel, and patch it myself,
rather than having a kernel pre-patched with stuff I won't want.
Post by Daniel James
In the serious audio space, I believe the main competitor to Linux is
Apple OS
X. Only distros with plenty of pre-configuration stand a chance against OS X,
since most people who work in the sound industry are not C programmers. Out
of all the user-orientated distros, Mandrake is the only one I know that
respects and actually believes in free software.
I agree.

Regards
Luke.
Daniel James
2003-04-02 04:18:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Luke Yelavich
but from my experience at least,
Mandrake's kernel is the most patched.
That could well be true, outside the specialist distros.
Post by Luke Yelavich
At least RedHat's default kernels in
RH8 have low latency.
I don't think a default kernel in a general purpose distro would ever satisfy
the serious audio user - too many conflicts with the needs of server owners?

I'm keen to give the Mandrake 9.1 multimedia kernel a go - looks like it's got
all the features we'd need, including capabilities.
Post by Luke Yelavich
If you want to use the latest version of ALSA, you still need to have
kernel sources and the like handy.
Sure, but most users are going to stick with whatever version comes with the
distro, if their soundcard works.
Post by Luke Yelavich
I would rather have a
vanilla kernel source for a default distro kernel, and patch it myself,
rather than having a kernel pre-patched with stuff I won't want.
You can, because you know how - isn't free software great?

Cheers

Daniel
Luke Yelavich
2003-04-01 07:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Hi
I run Slackware 8.1 as an audio box, and I couldn't have picked a better
distro. The original kernel is not patched, which leaves room to compile my
own kernel, and patch it with whatever patches I want, in this case being
low latency, and preempt. I agree with what you said, and recommend
Slackware as an audio workstation as you only need install what you need,
and your filesystem is kept very clean.

Regards
Luke
Post by DevDSP Info
One of the major benefits of Slackware is that it doesn't use GUI
configuration tools. In distros that do have these, they work
fine 80% of the time, but taking care of the remaining 20% is a
royal pain.
Another major benefit is that it's very clean - it's quite possible to
have an almost complete understanding of the layout of a Slackware
system, something that, for me anyways, is impossible on other distros
that swamp everything with hundreds of vendor-specific configuration
files.
If you like learning new stuff and if you can get into the habit of
RTFM-ing and using Google, Slackware comes highly recommended.
Just be aware that it will take a while before you've set it up as an
audio workstation - it doesn't even enable sound out of the box!
However, it's definitely doable, and if you succeed, you'll have a
system that's set up just the way you want it, with no extra cruft
lying around.
take care,
Matthijs de Jonge
http://devdsp.net - news and resources for computer musicians
R Parker
2003-04-01 08:27:01 UTC
Permalink
Hi,
Post by t***@gmx.de
Its like installing from source but without the
patching and stuff...
installing ardour is a matter of
sh# emerge ardour
this command will fetch current ardour-cvs and its
dependencies and then
build....
How do you handle the current ardour which doesn't
build because gtk-ardour version.h fails to generate.
A work around that won't work with emerge is; cd
gtk-ardour, make version.h, cd .., make, make install.

ron
Post by t***@gmx.de
look at www.gentoo.org...
--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio
language


__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://platinum.yahoo.com
t***@gmx.de
2003-04-01 09:02:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by R Parker
Hi,
Post by t***@gmx.de
Its like installing from source but without the
patching and stuff...
installing ardour is a matter of
sh# emerge ardour
this command will fetch current ardour-cvs and its
dependencies and then
build....
How do you handle the current ardour which doesn't
build because gtk-ardour version.h fails to generate.
A work around that won't work with emerge is; cd
gtk-ardour, make version.h, cd .., make, make install.
src_compile() {

sh autogen.sh

econf || die "configure failed"

# while troubleshooting upgrades to ardour-cvs-0.6 i changed from
# emake to make. Can probably change back. Need to test.
make || die "parallel make failed"

}

would change to

src_compile() {

sh autogen.sh

econf || die "configure failed"

cd gtk-ardour; make version.h; cd ..

# while troubleshooting upgrades to ardour-cvs-0.6 i changed from
# emake to make. Can probably change back. Need to test.

make || die "parallel make failed"
}

But indeed... i think paul will be faster than jje at gentoo...
emerge ardour-cvs only works if cvs works out of the box.
Post by R Parker
ron
Post by t***@gmx.de
look at www.gentoo.org...
--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio
language
__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more
http://platinum.yahoo.com
--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language
Austin
2003-04-01 10:16:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moeflon
Been messing around the last couple of days with MDK 9.1(rc3) Or I did
something wrong, or urpmi has some probs, anyhow, more than 3/4 of the
sound rpms I tried to install from the 9.1 plf sources seem to be
corrupted (as I may believe what urpmi tells me)
I highly doubt this. We have thousands of users reporting that 9.1 works
better than any previous version, and I'm a member of PLF devel team. Can you
be more specific? What do you mean by 'corrupted sources' and 'urpmi
problems'? I'll try to help.
Post by Moeflon
I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
Slackware.
There's not much difference between a binary RPM and a binary tgz package.

Austin
--
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Moeflon
2003-04-01 11:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Well,

After screwing around in my system all day, I finally found the cure:
tripwire had a problem and thus preventing me to install some rpm. A
simple uninstall of tripwire solved the rpm-troubles. I'm downloading
rpms like crazy now...

Another isue which came up today(probably not for this list): I 'm using
X-free 4. Seems that mister X is eating up all my ram and swap too.
Ksysguard tells me X is eating 750000+ vmsize. Is this normal?

And yet another one: Could somebody PLEASE explain me (in human
language) how to get rosegarden to make some sound-output. I can't hear
anything, nor can I use my evolution-usb-keyboard... I already figured
out it probably has something to do with jack. But what and how still
remain a mystery to me...


Thanks to everybody with your responses. To be honest, I never expected
these answers. THX!!

Oh, before I forget I guess I will stay with Mandrake for now. I already
learned a lot about linux today.

Karel.
Post by Austin
Post by Moeflon
Been messing around the last couple of days with MDK 9.1(rc3) Or I did
something wrong, or urpmi has some probs, anyhow, more than 3/4 of the
sound rpms I tried to install from the 9.1 plf sources seem to be
corrupted (as I may believe what urpmi tells me)
I highly doubt this. We have thousands of users reporting that 9.1 works
better than any previous version, and I'm a member of PLF devel team. Can you
be more specific? What do you mean by 'corrupted sources' and 'urpmi
problems'? I'll try to help.
Post by Moeflon
I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
Slackware.
There's not much difference between a binary RPM and a binary tgz package.
Austin
Austin
2003-04-01 11:21:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moeflon
And yet another one: Could somebody PLEASE explain me (in human
language) how to get rosegarden to make some sound-output. I can't hear
anything, nor can I use my evolution-usb-keyboard... I already figured
out it probably has something to do with jack. But what and how still
remain a mystery to me...
have you read this?
http://groundstate.ca/mdkaw.html

Let me know if I can help.
Austin
--
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
homepage: www.groundstate.ca
Moeflon
2003-04-01 12:00:01 UTC
Permalink
Nope, I didn't. I wil asap. At first glance it looks exactly what i need
as a guide.

Austin, thank you for your help so far. Can I contact you off-list when
I run into new troubles?

Regards,

Karel.
Post by Austin
Post by Moeflon
And yet another one: Could somebody PLEASE explain me (in human
language) how to get rosegarden to make some sound-output. I can't hear
anything, nor can I use my evolution-usb-keyboard... I already figured
out it probably has something to do with jack. But what and how still
remain a mystery to me...
have you read this?
http://groundstate.ca/mdkaw.html
Let me know if I can help.
Austin
Austin
2003-04-01 12:06:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moeflon
Nope, I didn't. I wil asap. At first glance it looks exactly what i need
as a guide.
Austin, thank you for your help so far. Can I contact you off-list when
I run into new troubles?
Yeah, no problem.
Austin
--
Austin Acton Hon.B.Sc.
Synthetic Organic Chemist, Teaching Assistant
Department of Chemistry, York University, Toronto
MandrakeClub Volunteer (www.mandrakeclub.com)
homepage: www.groundstate.ca
jordan muscott
2003-04-01 13:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Moeflon
I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
Slackware.
=> Does anybody have any idea how difficult/easy it is to build a
sound-workstation on slack? any links?
I just made this switch (to Slackware 9) and i'm very happy with it.
I've had no problems compiling any audio apps so far, and have been
using a utility called 'checkinstall' to build slack packages instead of
just doing 'make install', which makes it a bit easier to keep track of
what is installed etc.

Jordan.
Felix Dijder
2003-04-01 14:46:01 UTC
Permalink
That checkinstall utility can also produce RPM packages and DEB packages.

Worth using it.

Loauc.


----- Original Message -----
From: "jordan muscott" <***@no-future.com>
To: <linux-audio-***@music.columbia.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, April 01, 2003 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [linux-audio-user] MDK sound-RPMs troubles / Sound in
Slackware?
Post by jordan muscott
Post by Moeflon
I 'm getting headaches from the rpm-system. I'd like to move over to
Slackware.
=> Does anybody have any idea how difficult/easy it is to build a
sound-workstation on slack? any links?
I just made this switch (to Slackware 9) and i'm very happy with it.
I've had no problems compiling any audio apps so far, and have been
using a utility called 'checkinstall' to build slack packages instead of
just doing 'make install', which makes it a bit easier to keep track of
what is installed etc.
Jordan.
Brian Redfern
2003-04-01 14:41:01 UTC
Permalink
Especially the new version of Rosegarden, Rosegarden4 is really stable and
has a decent note resolution, so its been working well with my asrx
sampler. I coould also export the sequences as csound score files and then
re-work the tunes within csound, so I can't imagine finding anything on
windows/mac (unless it gets ported to osx of course).

http://www.brianredfern.org
Post by Patrick Shirkey
Post by Daniel James
I never said any of those things. I'm optimistic that Linux will soon provide
reliable creative tools that are widely accessible
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink...
We have extreemely good tools already. The hard part is learning how to
run a stable machine. You won't find it any different on other OS's. If
you want to let people record two tracks without dropouts, then add some
fx you could do that easily 5 years ago on Linux.
If you want to let people make cutting edge music that blows everyone
away you need to teach them how to play the instrument and then, maybe,
they will come up with something innovative. My experience is one in ten
can sustain real creativity.
The rest of us are doomed to hobbyism and inferiority complexes ;]
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================
Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.
Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
Jon Ellis
2003-04-01 23:16:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmx.de
But indeed... i think paul will be faster than jje at gentoo...
emerge ardour-cvs only works if cvs works out of the box.
Expect Paul to get to this quicker than i do. If i update the ebuild
for temporary hacks like this i'm just making more work for myself.
Given my non-gentoo commitments right now i can only do gentoo work at
the weekends...

At somepoint i'd like to get to the point where someone can walk up to
a gentoo box, type 'emerge DAW' and get a bunch of useful apps install
and working together. We aren't even close to that yet but by the end
of the summer...

j.
t***@gmx.de
2003-04-02 04:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jon Ellis
Post by t***@gmx.de
But indeed... i think paul will be faster than jje at gentoo...
emerge ardour-cvs only works if cvs works out of the box.
Expect Paul to get to this quicker than i do. If i update the ebuild
for temporary hacks like this i'm just making more work for myself.
Given my non-gentoo commitments right now i can only do gentoo work at
the weekends...
yes right... but i have proven, that it is possible to hack the ebuild
on your system, to do those temprary fixes and still have package
management.
Post by Jon Ellis
At somepoint i'd like to get to the point where someone can walk up to
a gentoo box, type 'emerge DAW' and get a bunch of useful apps install
and working together. We aren't even close to that yet but by the end
of the summer...
i am looking forward to this...
what apps are you thinking of ?
--
torben Hohn
http://galan.sourceforge.net -- The graphical Audio language
Jon Ellis
2003-04-02 08:39:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@gmx.de
yes right... but i have proven, that it is possible to hack the ebuild
on your system, to do those temprary fixes and still have package
management.
Quite, the ebuild system is simple enough to hack for temp. fixes like
this and yet powerful enough to not lose the package management. I life
it a lot.
Post by t***@gmx.de
Post by Jon Ellis
At somepoint i'd like to get to the point where someone can walk up to
a gentoo box, type 'emerge DAW' and get a bunch of useful apps install
and working together. We aren't even close to that yet but by the end
of the summer...
i am looking forward to this...
what apps are you thinking of ?
I've not really thought much beyond, jack, ardour, ladspa, synths. A
lot will depend on what is stable at the time. At this stage i'm very
much open to suggestions.

j.
Michael Solberg
2003-04-02 09:13:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by Tim Hall
Post by Rob
Musicians aren't geeks
Since when?
Show me a musician who wants to take the time to patch his kernel and I'll
show you a musician who isn't getting any gigs.
Gosh. I normally don't like to perpetuate threads like this, but it's
actually an interesting phenomenon to me, as I'm the system administrator
at a school of music with about four hundred case studies.

As much as I had always thought computers and music went hand in hand,
there doesn't seem to be much of a hard and fast rule about this. (I
guess it's silly to expect a stereotype, no matter how benign, to be
true.)

For example, the prof who teaches electronic music is a Macintosh guru.
He runs his own OSX web and streaming servers, and can get his way around
on the command line just fine. He writes crazy MAX patches that interface
with video, sound, and lighting. He's set up streaming video conference
classes with instructors in South America. However, he often remarks how
he feels that technology gets in the way of his composing, and that he can
really only focus on one at a time.

One of my most savvy users placed 2nd in the Tchaikovsky competition and
frequently tours the world giving concerts. But, I also have a number of
world travelers who can't open a document without double clicking on it.

What I've generally found is that everyone knows how to do exactly what
they need to know how to do (i.e. the guy who has the Jazz radio show can
run circles around me in ProTools and DigiPerformer, the staff member who
does up the programs kicks my ass in PageMaker, most of the students
here can rip and burn six or seven CDs at a time), and very few go much
beyond that. But - if what they need to know how to do is generate CSound
files with Perl scripts, they sit down with a book or come to my office
and learn it.

I've only given one "howto" presentation here to the faculty in the last
year, because that one presentation generated about a month's worth of one
on one training with faculty who were ecstatic to try something new with
computers.

So - I don't know. I'd bet if a faculty member needed to use Linux to
make some noise (like I do), they'd probably take the time to learn how to
use Linux, just like my faculty are taking the time to learn how to switch
from OS9 to OSX. It's gotten to a point now where it's not uncommon for
me to walk in to help a client and they've got one or two terminals open,
just trying to fix the problem the (new) old fashioned way.

Mike.
Post by Rob
Rob
-----------------------------------------
Michael Solberg
Computer Services Specialist IV
The University of Georgia School of Music
-----------------------------------------
Matthew Yee-King
2003-04-02 13:50:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Rob
Post by Tim Hall
Post by Rob
Musicians aren't geeks
Since when?
Show me a musician who wants to take the time to patch his kernel and I'll
show you a musician who isn't getting any gigs.
er - you're welcome to come to my gig with 'a guy called gerald' on
april 25th in london and listen to my alsa cvs sound drivers running
alongside my patched kernel. oh and did i tell you i work full time as well?

hah!

- matthew
Patrick Shirkey
2003-04-03 00:57:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Yee-King
Post by Rob
Show me a musician who wants to take the time to patch his kernel and I'll
show you a musician who isn't getting any gigs.
er - you're welcome to come to my gig with 'a guy called gerald' on
april 25th in london and listen to my alsa cvs sound drivers running
alongside my patched kernel. oh and did i tell you i work full time as well?
Hah, My first big one is on the 19 April.

Kudos though, I have listened to AGCG alot on Groovetech.

When will you get some airtime?
--
Patrick Shirkey - Boost Hardware Ltd.
Http://www.boosthardware.com
Http://www.djcj.org - The Linux Audio Users guide
========================================

Being on stage with the band in front of crowds shouting, "Get off! No!
We want normal music!", I think that was more like acting than anything
I've ever done.

Goldie, 8 Nov, 2002
The Scotsman
Daniel James
2003-04-03 04:04:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Yee-King
you're welcome to come to my gig with 'a guy called gerald' on
april 25th in london
What's the venue and time?

For those of you not familiar with Gerald's work, he is a true innovator - and
a technology fiend too! In the UK he is best known as a pioneer of acid
house, which kicked off the whole 'rave' thing.
Post by Matthew Yee-King
and listen to my alsa cvs sound drivers running
alongside my patched kernel.
In my generalisation, I didn't mean that there are zero musicians with the
necessary code skills. But consider my proposition in terms of sets - out of
all the musicans in the world, only a subset have access to electricity. A
subset of those have access to a computer. A subset of those run Linux. And a
final subset have the advanced system configuration knowledge required to
build and maintain the kernel, jack, applications etc. Out of that relatively
very small group, some of the members would prefer to practise their
instrument or mix their album than tinker with software.

In my own case, I have compiled kernels in the past, and got jack running from
scratch, but with ready-made RPMs I can avoid duplicating effort and get on
with creative work. Thanks to people like Thac and Austin I can now start
editing the 40+ tracks we've recorded with the minimum of hassle.

Cheers

Daniel
Matthew Yee-King
2003-04-03 04:27:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel James
Post by Matthew Yee-King
you're welcome to come to my gig with 'a guy called gerald' on
april 25th in london
What's the venue and time?
For those of you not familiar with Gerald's work, he is a true innovator - and
a technology fiend too! In the UK he is best known as a pioneer of acid
house, which kicked off the whole 'rave' thing.
Post by Matthew Yee-King
and listen to my alsa cvs sound drivers running
alongside my patched kernel.
In my generalisation, I didn't mean that there are zero musicians with the
necessary code skills. But consider my proposition in terms of sets - out of
all the musicans in the world, only a subset have access to electricity. A
subset of those have access to a computer. A subset of those run Linux. And a
final subset have the advanced system configuration knowledge required to
build and maintain the kernel, jack, applications etc. Out of that relatively
very small group, some of the members would prefer to practise their
instrument or mix their album than tinker with software.
In my own case, I have compiled kernels in the past, and got jack running from
scratch, but with ready-made RPMs I can avoid duplicating effort and get on
with creative work. Thanks to people like Thac and Austin I can now start
editing the 40+ tracks we've recorded with the minimum of hassle.
fair enough. I just couldn't resist responding to the 'show me a
musician who compiles kernels etc' sentence becaouse i could prove
exactly the opposite to be true.

I'm basically bitter because i'm on a powerpc so i can't get planet
rpms. ;)


venue is 93 feet east,
http://www.93feeteast.co.uk/

the night is called Eat Your Own Ears. The time is normal club times i
think.

cheers

matthew
Daniel James
2003-04-03 04:52:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Matthew Yee-King
fair enough. I just couldn't resist responding to the 'show me a
musician who compiles kernels etc' sentence becaouse i could prove
exactly the opposite to be true.
er.. I think that may have been a joke!
Post by Matthew Yee-King
I'm basically bitter because i'm on a powerpc so i can't get planet
rpms. ;)
There will be a PPC version of Mandrake 9.1 coming out later - maybe you could
rebuild the source RPMs for the audio stuff.
Post by Matthew Yee-King
venue is 93 feet east,
http://www.93feeteast.co.uk/
Brick Lane, eh? I used to know that area quite well, and if I remember that
particular building right, it's quite a swish venue. And no matter what time
it closes, you'll be able to get a bagel afterwards.

Cheers

Daniel
jordan muscott
2003-04-03 05:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Daniel James
Post by Matthew Yee-King
fair enough. I just couldn't resist responding to the 'show me a
musician who compiles kernels etc' sentence becaouse i could prove
exactly the opposite to be true.
er.. I think that may have been a joke!
Daniel - you may be getting a bit confused here, it was another poster
who made the comment ( " Show me a musician who wants to take the time
to patch his kernel and I'll show you a musician who isn't getting any
gigs." ) that Matthew + I we're replying to. Unless of course, you are
on the list as two different people, hehe :=)

cheers, Jordan.
Daniel James
2003-04-03 05:30:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by jordan muscott
Post by Daniel James
er.. I think that may have been a joke!
Daniel - you may be getting a bit confused here, it was another poster
who made the comment
I know that - if it had been me saying it, I would have *known* it was a
joke...

Cheers

Daniel
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